Re: Gum woes revisited

From: Scott Wainer ^lt;[email protected]>
Date: 05/20/05-10:05:49 PM Z
Message-id: <001901c55dba$60df14e0$55affea9@scottho3aakafr>

Hi Katharine,

I chucked everything except for:

W&N French Ultramarine - PB29
W&N Cadmium Red Deep - PR108
Grumbacher Lemon Yellow - PY3

If I said W&N Lemon Yellow I confused the manufacturers. I kept the Lemon
Yellow because I like the color (as I see it). I'm mostly colorblind to reds
and greens, though yellows give me fits sometimes.

I stopped by Pearl art supply on my way home from work today and picked up 2
new colors - W&N Quinacridone Red (PR209) and W&N Winsor Yellow (PY154). I
haven't had a chance to try them yet. I remember there was a discussion
about Quinacridone on the list sometime back but I didn't pay much attention
to it and I haven't looked it up yet so I don't know what everyone's
reaction to it was. I got the Winsor Yellow because it looked stronger than
the Lemon Yellow which seems a bit pale to me but that could just be because
it was diluted 1+20. I'm going to try going back to the 1+10 dilution and
see if my problem was simply having one coat of size.

I'm working on setting up a page with my ISP so I can post images but it'll
probably be about a week off. It'll be interesting to get people's thoughts
on my color work; everyone always asks me how I can be a photographer if i'm
colorblind and think it strange when I say I work in monochrome processes -
most people (non-artists) seem to think only in relation to Type-C prints.

Regards, Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: "Katharine Thayer" <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: Gum woes revisited

> Hi Scott,
> A couple of thoughts:
> In your earlier post you listed a whole lot of paints and asked for
> comments on the pigments. I don't know if you got any comments other
> than my own about the pigments, since I've been too sick to read that
> whole thread, and I only commented briefly on the two lines of paint
> that I personally felt to be of inferior quality and permanence, the
> designer gouaches and the Grumbacher.
> Now, since you asked earlier, I'll comment on the specific pigments you
> mention here from Winsor & Newton.
> Winsor & Newton's "lemon yellow" doesn't belong to the same pigment
> families as most paints called "lemon yellow" which are most often a
> hansa (arylide) yellow, like PY3, or a cadmium yellow (PY35 or more
> rarely PY37). The W&N "lemon yellow" is nickel titanate (PY53) which is
> a rather dull pale pastel, somewhat opaque yellow, it looks in the
> swatches like a way watered down yellow ochre. (I haven't used it
> myself; I'm just looking at swatches from various manufacturers and at
> the description at Just from the swatches and the
> description, PY53 wouldn't be my first choice for tricolor work
> (although it should be admitted that my own personal first choice is
> also a sort of offbeat choice, so I'm not looking down my nose at an
> unusual choice). The reason I wouldn't choose the nickel titanate is
> because it's such a wimpy, dull yellow; I'd personally want something
> more intense and bright to hold its own with the other colors in a
> tricolor.
> The cadmium red is also somewhat opaque. I prefer transparent pigments,
> myself, for tricolor work, but at the dilution you're using them here,
> these opaque pigments are probably at least semitransparent. I'd be
> interested to see the prints, is there any way you can post them?
> Several months ago, because of a discussion that was going on here, I
> was thinking a lot about pigments for tricolor work. I'd have to go back
> and find that thread to be reminded of what I was thinking at the time
> about it, but one of the things I remember speculating about was that in
> order for a particular combination of pigments to work, the individual
> pigments probably need not only to have compatible reflectance curves,
> but also to be equidistant on the color wheel. Which brings me to the
> thought that for a good color balance you'd probably need a different
> yellow and magenta to go with the new cyanotype (which to my eye is more
> like a pthalo) than the classic cyanotype (which to my eye is more like
> an ultramarine). Just something more to add to the mix,
> Katharine Thayer
> Scott Wainer wrote:
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > Just an update on my journey into gumland. After changing almost
> > everything I was doing I began to taste success, except for a slight
> > problem of not being able to get a smooth first coat (cyan printed
> > using ultramarine). After a little head scratching and reading Sam
> > Wang's article on 3 color gums (, I tried using
> > cyanotype as a first coat. It was a mess, even with a change of paper
> > (to Fabriano Uno) I still had a hard time getting the first coat of
> > gum smooth (this time with lemon yellow). More head scratching and I
> > decided to give the paper a second coat of sizing and to dilute my
> > pigment/gum solution even more. Everthing worked perfectly. Here's
> > what I came up with:
> >
> > Paper:
> > Fabriano Uno
> > preshrink by soaking for 1 hour at 140F
> > allow to dry before sizing
> > 2 brush applications of 3% gelatin size
> > 30gm gelatin + 3gm Chrome Alum per liter
> >
> > Cyan base:
> > New Cyanotype (1.5ml for a 5x7 image)
> > add 2 drops 5% Tween20 per 10 drops of sensitizer
> > add 2 drops 40% citric acid per 10 drops of sensitizer
> >
> > Pigment/Gum:
> > pigments - Winsor & Newton artist grade watercolor
> > Lemon Yellow for yellow separation
> > Cadmium Red for magenta separation
> > gum - Daler-Rowney (light amber)
> > ratio - 1gm pigment to 20ml gum
> >
> > Process:
> > 1. print image in cyanotype using digital negative with cyanotype
> > curve applied - printed and processed as a normal cyanotype
> > approximately 5 minute exposure - 10 minute development -
> > peroxide bath - 10 minute wash - blowdry on hot 10 minutes
> >
> > 2. yellow separation -
> > apply pigment/dichromate at 1+1 and allow to dry 1 hour -
> > sensitizer went down very smooth - no blending required -
> > expose 2 minutes and develop for 1 hour in 3 still baths -
> > dry overnight
> >
> > 3. magenta separation -
> > apply pigment/dichromate at 1+1 and allow to dry 1 hour -
> > sensitizer went down very smooth - no blending required -
> > expose 2 minutes and develop for 1 hour in 3 still baths -
> > dry overnight
> >
> > Changing to a more dilute pigment/gum ratio and adding the second coat
> > of size did wonders - no more worries. While the colors (as I see
> > them) are different from the original I like what I am getting and
> > will try other colors in the future.
> >
> > Thanks to everyone for their help, Scott
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
Received on Fri May 20 22:06:20 2005

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