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[ale] Open Source Apps [WAAAYYY OT]

This will be my last posting on this issue, as it's gotten too OT....

ChangingLINKS.com wrote:

> I meant to clarify that the MARKET LEADER is rarely if ever the
> better product.

That's not the issue.  Being the market leader is not necessarily what 
all companies strive for.  Many are targeting a particular type of 

> I am not talking about 100% of the Linux users on
> this list. I am talking about the globe. It takes more effort and
> will to find the best product (even with Mountain bikes, you can get
> one at Walmart, or shop harder and get higher quality).

What's that got to do with it?  Everyone has the choice to shop where 
they want.  I generally shop at specialty shops for just about 
everything, because I'm willing to pay the higher price for good quality.

> Yes. But you seem "anti-Market Leader" a concept which has been
> marketed to you. You rarely go to McDonald's

I don't go to McDonalds because the food and service sucks.

> You probably boycott Walmart.

Wrong, just returned from a trip there.  I'm at Walmart probably once a 
week.  I can get good quality products there at a good price.

> You probably don't use the major/leading ISP in your area.

Bellsouth? Because they don't provide the service I'm looking for.

> You probably avoid other big brand names. You don't like M$FT at all.

You're making this into a "I don't like the big guy" thing.  You know 
full well I've made intelligent decisions on not purchasing M$ products.

Let's see I own products made by Sony, Chevrolet, Viewsonic, REI, 
Siemens, Levi, Timberland....  Well, guess you're wrong on that one.

> You don't even like Coke or Pepsi. :)

I don't care for the flavor.  Has nothing to do with the market issues. 
  I prefer Mello Yello or Mountain Dew, both bottled by the two 
companies you've mentioned before.  For the most part I drink IBC cream 

> And, I am suuuuuure that you feel your perception is "the best."

My choices are based on my preferences.  Yes I do choose not to purchase 
M$ products, but it's not because they are the biggest, it's because 
they are criminals and they have lousy products.  They try to lock you 
into their products with their forceful marketing and upgrade 

> Only idiots support those companies that offshore.

That's a totaly different argument which you're trying to leverage in 
order to anger me.  Trolling again I see.

> Only idiots use Windows.

Must be your opinion.  I've never said that.  People who use Windows do 
so for varied reasons, but mostly because:

1. That's what they're used to
2. That's all they are aware of
3. The software they use only runs on windows (my wife, for example, and 
I do not think she's an idiot)

I do think technical people who are not willing to look at alternatives 
are idiots.

> And, you probably
> don't feel that any marketing was involved in helping you make a 
> decision to be so "anti."

Anti what?  Anti M$?  That is purely based on my experiences and 
research.  Anti marketing?  Yes, adv. and marketing has gotten so 
skewed, companies routinely hide the important facts or out right lie. 
I can't tell you how many products I've purchased based on advertised 
benefits, only to find they don't match those claims.  Computer software 
is real high on the list.

But there are products that are very good and give you all they advertise.

I'm quite pleased with a number of products:

1. my John Deere mower.
2. my Sony laptop
3. my Siemens two line cordless phone.
4. Linux
5. my VewiSonic monitor.
6. my cell phone service.
7. my patogonia jacket
8. my North Face backpack
9. my Mazda pickup
10. my Chevrolet Malibu
11. The Disney cruises I've taken.

Now there's a company.  Disney.  We've made two cruises with them and 
that is the top of the list of quality, customer oriented companies I've 
ever dealt with.

>> Drew, your problem is you believe so much in marketing that you
>> think it's the answer to everything.  It's not.
> Yes. I think that marketing plays a significant role in many things.
> I don't "believe" in marketing. I just observe the mechanics of
> decision making. How much stuff do we really decide on our own
> without communication and influence from others? "Hey, you should try
> Linux because . . . ." Everything after the "because" and the
> "should" qualify as Marketing. Marketing is done through different
> media. Word of Mouth, written words, TV, Radio. Some or all of those
> influenced your decision to try Linux. The fact that you perceive
> that you found more information to support your decision is 
> irrelevant. The fact that you take an interest in trying to gather
> more pro-Linux and anti-Microsoft information (so that you can
> "share" it with others) is relevant. The bottom line is we all
> communicate and MOST of that communication is marketing, or trying to
> push our ideas on others.

Wrong.  There is a huge difference between M$'s little butterfly 
commercials and me pushing Linux.  M$ is adv. to make money, pure and 
simple.  I have nothing to gain by other people using Linux, outside of 
the satisfaction of seeing how pleased they are once they get a handle 
on it.

>> Not all people fall for the lies.
> ALL people fall for *some* lies. Our opinions/perceptions are
> illusions or lies in and of themselves. Of course,

This is laughable.

opinions/perceptions are illusions or lies???

> you imply that YOU are better than the rest of us.

Your perception is that I imply I'm better then the 'rest of us.' 
That's your problem not mine.  I learned a long time ago a couple of 
very important things:

1. Everyone has something to learn, everyone has something they can 
teach someone else.
2. NO ONE knows everything, NO ONE is totally ignorant.
3. There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity.

This is a problem you have not I.  I'd gladly put it to the list, who 
out there thinks, I THINK, I'm better then EVERYONE???  (rhetorical).

I say all the time, I know a little bit about a lot of things.  I'm not 
an expert on any of it.  Fletch knows more about Perl, Bob knows more 
about security, Chris F. knows more about sys. admin, Dow knows more 
about high end graphics cards.  I can go on, but I assume that you get 
my point.

> You make all of your decisions by
> doing extensive research via your own testing and take no information
> or opinions of others into account. I am sure you PERCEIVE that you
> choose the best product every time. Guess what? That's a lie. :)

I don't take others input into account?  What exactly do you think my 
research does?  Check out the archives to see how many times I've asked 
a question of the list.  If I didn't value the opinions of others, I 
wouldn't be on this list.  I try my best to choose the best product for 
my needs.  Do I believe I know I pick the right product everytime?  No, 
but I do my best.

> To illustrate: You pat yourself on the back for using Linux over
> Microsoft, BUT do you use the "BEST" Linux? Have you really tried
> them all with all of their different configurations or did you settle
> for an inferior product? So you use the best distro, have you tried
> all of the Window managers (even the ones that don't come as a
> default)? Tried ALL of the filesystems available? Are "we"
> omniscient, or did we stop gathering info when our perception 
> satisfied our egotistical need for having "the best."? :)

This has become ridiculous.  Who do you know that has driven every car 
that exists in order to purchase the best product?  It's not a matter of 
best, it's a matter of something that meets my needs.  The best car is 
likely a $100,000+ vehicle, but I don't need the best car, one that 
meets my needs is sufficient.

Windows does not meet my needs.  Linux does.

As for trying variations of Linux and window managers, I've tried many, 
I've changed a number of times.

Slackware->Red Hat->TurboLinux->SuSE->Gentoo->Mandrake->SuSE

As I noted, I choose the tool that best meets my needs.  That's why 
you'll find I'm running more than one distro, SuSE on my desktop, 
Slackware on my firewalls.

>> That's all marketing is.  Twists of the truth, have truths and bald
>> face lies.
> I have heard something like that before, although the statement was
> not marketed to me in a way where I feel that it is immutable.

I didn't say it wouldn't change.  As a matter of fact I said it has 
changed.  Marketing and adv. used to ring with more truth, it's gone 
down hill substantially.

> Assuming your position is true, then recognize that we are ALL liars.

We are discussing marketing by companies, not individuals.

>  And, I should clarify here that money is not the only motive for
> marketing.

It is when we're talking about products purchased from companies.

> Religion is marketed.

I won't even entertain this line of discussion.

> You market yourself with your resume.

And I assure you, there is not one lie on my resume'.  I'll gladly give 
you a copy and challenge you to prove otherwise.

> You market your new business.

Your point?  Still, no lies there.

> You market your Anti-Microsoft opinion. You market Suse. You market
> your political opinions. You market you "anti-Capitalism, hate the
> big company" attitudes. YOU market Linux to your friends via Word of
> Mouth. How much lying are you doing?

None.  I don't lie about those things.  As far as anti-capitalism, 
you've quite missed the boat.  I'm for a fare market with competition. 
That is healthy.  A monopoly is not healthy.

Now, I challenge you to point out where I have lied.  One thing I do 
value is my integrity.  I have not lied about any of the things you 
listed above.  Provide me the proof I have, otherwise do not call me a 
lier again.

> You will probably backpedal by saying your communication is fair,
> unbiased and that you do not market to others but merely "share
> information or 'the facts'."

No, you can call it marketing if you like.  The difference is, I don't 
lie in order to sell a product.  Sure it's going to be biased by my 
beliefs, experiences and opinions.  But, I'm not trying to sell you a 
product to do something it won't do.

> You will probably tell us that YOU do not "lie" (in the same context)

I do not lie.

> . . . . but we all know that the communication will simply be an
> attempt to market yourself and your point of view.

That is not a lie.  When you lie, you say something that you know is not 
true.  I do not do that in the context you have outlined.  Do I lie? 
Yes, I've lied to my wife or daughter in order to protect their 
feelings.  In the context you've outlined, I have not lied.

> I don't buy it. :)

Doesn't matter, I don't care.

Until later, Geoffrey	esoteric at 3times25.net

Building secure systems inspite of Microsoft