Re: Fibber McGee's Closet

From: Sandy King ^lt;>
Date: 03/12/05-10:22:31 AM Z
Message-id: <a06020424be58c4f9e09e@[]>

Let me begin this message with a request to Grodon to remove my name
as one of the list minders of this list. I do so that any comments I
may make here, and in the future, will be seen as purely my own and
not as official thought.

I had not expected to write any more about this but changed my mind
after this latest missive from Judy.

I must acknowledge that Judy's comments about Jewelia would most
likely not have caused me to become involved in this discussion. What
determined that for me was her nasty response to Mr. Ptak, in which
she ended up suggesting that he was a sexist because he complained
about her remarks and not those of other males. So for the purpose of
further comments by me Jewelia is not an issue. The issue is Judy's
lack of civility.

I have been a member of this list for a very long time, during which
I have both contributed knowledge and experience and benefited from
the knowledge and experience of others. If anyone cares to go back
through the archives and look at my messages they will find that a
very high percentage of them are on-topic dealing with alternative
photography. I have my faults and one might also find a few examples
of bad behavior on my part, with both males and females, some of
which led to unfortunate exchanges that I regret. One in particular
with Kerik Kouklis comes to mind, along with quite a number with Judy.

What do we find if we look at Judy's contributions to this list?
Well, we certainly find a great number of on-topic messages that have
contributed much to the list. However, one also finds a great number
of messages that that have nothing to do with alternative
photography, the so-called prattle discussions.. And then there are
the constant put-downs of list members, such as the gratuitous and
nasty attack this week of Mr. Ptak, many which end with Judy calling
the person a sexist. She has also repeatedly abused the list by
insisting on discussing political and social issues that have nothing
to do with the list, and this has also created long-term hostilities.
Who can ever forget her post-9/11 diatribe. And then there are the
endless quarrels and spats, so many that they are legend. And how
many people knowledge and experience about alternative photography
have left this list or refuse to engage with it because of her? Many,
by my count. As for her whining that people have called her names and
not been rebuked for doing so, I agree that this should stop. Ryuji
should not have called her a cockroach. However, as for more recent
comments that have referred to her rudeness, rancor, obnoxious
attitude and sexist rants, that is not name calling in my opinion. It
is, to be blunt, calling a spade a spade.

  Judy has been, by my estimation, at the center of 90% or more of the
spats and quarrels on this list over the period of time that I have
been involved with it. I for one am sick of wasting the list wasting
so much of its energy and time with her agenda. So yes, I do call for
Judy to limit her discussions to matters relating to alternative
photography. And in particular I ask her to quite labeling people on
this thread who disagree with her as sexists.

And if she can not do so then I believe she should either remove
herself from the list, or be removed from it by the list owner.


>On Thu, 10 Mar 2005, Dave Soemarko wrote:
>>As for subsequent posts, we can always blame someone, but that will
>>get us nowhere. We can say Mr. Ptak shouldn't have blamed someone
>>before checking the facts, or that Judy shouldn't have been so
>>angry because the other person was new and didn't know the history,
>>or that Sandy shouldn't have added his comment, or that Bob
>>shouldn't say... etc. etc., but we also know things like this are
>>not always logical. People have feeling, emotion and also
>>preference and right to opinions....
>Sure, Dave, but remember that some opinions are internally, not
>externally caused... i.e., don't blame me for them....
>Still, I really appreciate your support (and support from offlist:
>"Go Girl Go!", etc.), also your calm approach, but in your good
>nature you overlook what I find shameful and a disgrace to the list
>-- I'm called UGLY names by a few guys, a couple who (for internal
>reasons) just pile on, and nobody, much less our "list minder," says
>stop, that's ugly.. In fact he's another.
>List Minder Sandy King tells me "shut your mouth"!?!? If you said
>that to your bratty teenager, they'd call it bad parenting. He says
>it to a colleague ? (True, only a *female* colleague.) If I said the
>equivalent to him, or any of the guys, they'd have coast-to-coast
>coronaries. In fact the last time someone said something like that
>to a GUY, if memory serves, he was put off the list...
>OK, I did call John Ptak a lurker. Not quite a compliment, but
>clearly a fact (welcome to the list, John, introduce yourself -- you
>may have acquired a following, tho not necessarily an elite), and,
>if you think of it, exactly John's late arrival caused all the
>trouble. I cannot, CANNOT believe that if he'd been here during
>Jewelia days he'd have batted an eye at my mild, factual, thumbnail
>But, alas (behavioral scientists please note) denial is the most
>powerful human faculty -- when the force is on, no reality can
>penetrate. John Ptak, albeit, to his credit, remaining polite, says
>added.) Exactly what is derogatory is not explained, but he still
>finds "the original remark offending."
>OK John, you asked for it. True, some men find any reference to male
>sex change "offending" (in fact I'm not so comfortable with it
>myself). But I think the explanation lies more with your inner Freud
>than anything I said. (I mean we're talking *castration*!) In any
>event, today I opened a real closet, a 180 year-old space off our
>living room that makes Fibber McGee's closet look empty. (I realize
>Fibber McGee's closet was from the very long ago, but so am I.)
>On top of the heap was a spiral-bound book, on the cover a
>rosy-cheeked young man with white hair and mustache holds a casette
>titled "Pecker." The caption says "dick head and his pecker"; the
>book itself is titled "Untitled 4-part play with Artist's
>presentations." It's marked,"for Judy" and signed "Jewelia
>Margaritta Cameroon,'99." It's a transcript of Jewelia's
>performance at 1999 APIS. I'll excerpt a few lines in a separate
>document -- and THEN, I DARE you to find my description anything but
>neutral !
>Meanwhile... Dave, are you still here? Do you remember the time,
>maybe one of your first posts to the list, maybe 10 years ago... You
>were writing about a generic photographer you referred to as "he."
>Then you stopped and asked the list, "Do I have to say 'he or she'?"
>I wrote, "you betcha," adding a short but brilliant explanation I
>forget now -- and all hell broke loose. Luis Nadeau went positively
>ballistic. One of the nicer things he called me (tho that was
>offlist, I still loved it) was "cultural imperialist," meaning that
>I was trying to make the world (including French Canadians!) follow
>the USA's politically correct rules. (I wonder if they ever did...?)
>OK, stay tuned for some excerpts...
Received on Sat Mar 12 10:22:49 2005

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : 04/08/05-09:31:00 AM Z CST