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IRR AS-SET best practices - AS-SET Clash

On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 02:48:58PM +0000, Job Snijders wrote:
> --- thread hijack --- 
> Coincidentally, I'm working to define something like "AS-SETs in RPKI".
> There are a number of downsides to "AS-SETs in IRR": collisions between
> databases can exist, it is hard to figure out what AS-SET to use for
> what ASN (we rely on service order forms, peeringdb or guessing for
> that), and the way the recursion was done can too easily result in
> gigantic sets.

	Obviously you have to prune once you hit a loop, but this is
how you can traverse a edge-node graph to find the leaves given a starting

> I'd be interested to know what others think about improving feature
> parity between IRR and RPKI, and while doing that make the bad aspects
> of AS-SETs go away and keep the good parts. Thoughts?

	I've found that saying RR, IRR and RPKI overloads one technology 
with another.  One needs a standards based method to access a database
about routing information.  We can federate databases together or come
up with methods to do this.  RPKI is another database you can validate
against but it also has limits.

	If I were a backbone, I would be asking myself: How can customers
effectively communicate with me their intent?  RPKI and IRR have weknesses
and the networks with automation and tooling here are light years ahead of
those that have nothing.  We as an industry must get better so the impact
is less when bad things happen.  It's clear to me a decade later even
asking people to filter out so called tier-1 networks with as-paths is
still a major problem.

	6453 & 5511 are still accepting their peering partner ASNs
from customers (for example) and it shows.  701 still accepts peer ASNs
from peers.  (example AS_PATHs in postscript)..

	There's no universal way to communicate these relationships yet
we have web based platforms where I can tell you what many list members
ate for dinner last night.  There is a lack of will to take action here
and a lack of common toolchains that can be integrated to perform the tasks.

	- Jared

> ps. raised the question here too https://mail.lacnic.net/pipermail/lacnog/2018-January/005845.html

A few interesting AS_Paths:

 2497 701 5511 59378 7473 2914 132602 38203 137038 
 3356 6453 21502 1299 6848 44216 
 701 6453 21502 1299 6848 44216 

Jared Mauch  | pgp key available via finger from jared at puck.nether.net
clue++;      | http://puck.nether.net/~jared/  My statements are only mine.