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[ih] fragmentation (Re: Could it have been different? [was Re: vm vs. memory])

On 10/27/2017 8:58 AM, Paul Vixie wrote:
> Dave Crocker wrote:
>> On 10/27/2017 5:08 AM, Paul Vixie wrote:
>>> so i think we can tell that not only the actual "internet engineers" of
>>> the world, but also their chosen vehicle, were in no way constrained by
>>> the thing you are calling a "mandate".
>> Field teams often go astray of their mandate. That doesn't make the
>> mandate not a mandate.
> it was never a mandate on the people who weren't part of the discussions
> of RFC 1726 or whose interests weren't aligned. so the answer to "when
> is something not a mandate?" would include this.

Well, /that/ observation is a touchstone to rather more-interesting 
questions about standards efforts, credibility and efficacy.

>>>> My point is that this was expanded over time.
>>> my point is that such expansion was inevitable and should have been
>>> expected and the people who ratified the mandate ought to have known
>>> better.
>> "Inevitable" is such a dangerous word. In this case, you've made a leap
>> to its use that skips over so many complex human and social issues, it
>> looks more like a statement of religion than engineering.
> i appreciate your candor, sir. a single counterexample from history
> could mollify me. my own survey showed that whenever an equivalent
> opportunity, motive and means were present, the result might as well
> have been preordained.

We have lots of examples of efforts that retained control over scope, 
did work in a timely fashion, and produced work that was useful in the 
way originally intended.  Consider the successful upgrade efforts, such 
as the sequence of changes to IPv4 address schemes, BGP, SNMP, MIME, 
SMTP extensions...

We do, of course, also have lots of examples that fail on one or more of 
these points.

There do seem to be some factors that contribute to failure or 
contribute to success, but I don't recall seeing them documented and 
justified.  Thaler's RFC 5218 is relevant here, but more for background 
than actual prescription.

My model has been that a combination of participation by those who must 
actually deliver the work to the marketplace -- so, development and ops 
and even business/marketing -- with a very strong dose of urgency, tend 
to produce more pragmatic and timely results.

Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking