[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

[ih] internet-history Digest, Vol 62, Issue 19



There are several people looking for things that may be at the Computer History Museum (CHM) in Mountain View, CA.
I have indicated below what these are:

Jake
====
On May 13, 2012, at 3:11 AM, internet-history-request at postel.org wrote:

> Send internet-history mailing list submissions to
> 	internet-history at postel.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	internet-history-request at postel.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	internet-history-owner at postel.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of internet-history digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: The UCLA 360/91 on the ARPAnet/Internet (Dave Crocker)
>   2. Re: Historical fiction (Vint Cerf)
>   3. Re: The UCLA 360/91 on the ARPAnet/Internet (John Day)
>   4. Re: The UCLA 360/91 on the ARPAnet/Internet (Sytel)
>   5. Re: Historical fiction (Noel Chiappa)
>   6. Re: Historical fiction (John Day)
>   7. Re: The UCLA 360/91 on the ARPAnet/Internet
>      (dave.walden.family at gmail.com)
>   8. Re: Historical fiction (dave.walden.family at gmail.com)
>   9. Re: The UCLA 360/91 on the ARPAnet/Internet (Vint Cerf)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 17:58:48 -0700
> From: Dave Crocker <dhc2 at dcrocker.net>
> Subject: Re: [ih] The UCLA 360/91 on the ARPAnet/Internet
> To: Vint Cerf <vint at google.com>
> Cc: internet-history at postel.org
> Message-ID: <4FAF0748.8080504 at dcrocker.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/12/2012 2:42 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:
>> Steve Crocker led the group that developed the
>> Sigma-7 Experiment Timesharing system. We called it SEX and the most
>> popular document among the geeks was the SEX Users Manual....

I think it was called "The Joy of Sex" and then there was "More Joy"
a parody on a very popular book at the time.  Both are at CHM
> 
> 
> Cycling back to the topic of Arpa's wanting to share resources, when we 
> tried to get funding for 32K more memory for the system, Arpa instead 
> said we should get a PDP-11 and use one of the terminal concentrator 
> systems (ANTS from Illinois or ELF from Santa Barbara) and do remote 
> computing.

I believe that ELF was done by Dave Retz while he was at SRI. 
Most DEC PDP-11s used it until it was superseded by UNIX.
I think there is an ELF manual (or some documentation - not sure) at CHM.
> 
> The concentrator systems weren't up to snuff, but Unix was coming 
> available on PDP-11s and we got that.
> 
> So Arpa took away our Sex and gave us Unix.
> 
> Our original superuser password was, of course, eunuchs.
> 
> d/
> -- 
>  Dave Crocker
>  Brandenburg InternetWorking
>  bbiw.net
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 21:19:04 -0400
> From: Vint Cerf <vint at google.com>
> Subject: Re: [ih] Historical fiction
> To: John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net>
> Cc: internet-history at postel.org, Noel Chiappa
> 	<jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>,	rogers at isi.edu
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAHxHggfq6NqEazQF7gptOGHGWTi1G7aoT__93euqd=fqtVQ9Vg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> i am pretty sure that DCA had charge of ARPANET from about 1975-early
> 1983; heidi heiden might be good to consult about that.

DCA took over the operational management of the Arpanet on July 1, 1975 with a 6-month transition overlap.
> 
> On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 8:40 PM, John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net> wrote:
>> For the first few years, there was a well-known socket at NMC that would
>> return a logical ARPANET map indicating who was up and down at that moment.
>> ?It would print on a single 8.5 x 11 page of paper on a Model 33 Teletype.
>> ?It was discontinued when it would no longer fit.

BBN published a set of logical and geographic network maps for many years.  CHM has a large number of these.
Also some of the early maps were published as RFCs.
>> 
>> SDC did have a node in Santa Monica and in DC. ?I don't remember what was
>> connected to it. ?It may have been a TIP. ?We were doing stuff with them in
>> the late 70s. ?The question is was it DARPA or DCA? or DISA?
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> At 18:35 -0400 2012/05/12, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>>> 
>>> ? ?> From: Craig Milo Rogers <rogers at ISI.EDU>
>>> 
>>> ? ?>> From: Dave Walden <dave.walden.family at gmail.com>
>>> 
>>> ? ?>> I think SDC was on the ARPANET, host number 10??
>>> 
>>> ? ?> SDC was on earlier than I remembered; they show up on the 1970
>>> ARPANET
>>> ? ?> map. They dropped off the map, so to speak, around 1977.
>>> 
>>> You saved me from making a big mistake! I consulted the entire series of
>>> "Network Host Status" RFCs, and according to them it was 0/8 ("SDC
>>> IBM-360/155") _but_ none of them ever showed it online. I tried looking in
>>> such host tables as I have, and a host table I have from '77 shows IMP 8
>>> being NRL. Which led me to guess they'd never been on... but that was
>>> clearly
>>> wrong: looking at some maps, I see they did.
>>> 
>>> Speaking of maps, I've been accumulating a big collection of them, and
>>> will
>>> put them up on a web page shortly. Of particular interest are the logical
>>> ones (not many of which are online), which also show the hosts.
>>> 
>>> (Looking online for ones to add to the large collection I have here, I'm
>>> amazed how much stuff has 404'd. Lots of collections pages, and most of
>>> the
>>> links to things don't work...

Which is why things should be deposited at recognized history sites.  Might try Internet Archives.

>>> :-( I saw a link to MSGGROUP archives, but
>>> it
>>> was gone - and when I Google'd for it, it wasn't anywhere else. Luckily, I
>>> found a copy in WayBack, but that doesn't seem to be indexed.)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Oh, about host tables: I think I have asked about these before? I have one
>>> from '77 (sort of - I think it's a list from an ARPANET Directory), one
>>> from
>>> '79, and then a lot from '82 on, but nothing early (and I seem to recall
>>> looking hard).

Some early ones were published as RFCs.  See RFC 289 and RFC 627 for instance.
Also, each Arpanet Directory and Resource Handbook had the most recent Host Table at the time of publication.
>>> 
>>> Does anyone have any early ones?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ? ?> Ari Shoshonan or something like that is a name that comes to mind.
>>> 
>>> The contact name given in the RFCs is "Bob Long", FWTW.
>>> 
>>> ? ? ? ?Noel
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 21:26:37 -0400
> From: John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [ih] The UCLA 360/91 on the ARPAnet/Internet
> To: dcrocker at bbiw.net, Vint Cerf <vint at google.com>
> Cc: internet-history at postel.org
> Message-ID: <[email protected][10.0.1.3]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
> 
> Right, we put the first Unix up on the 'Net on a PDP-11/45 in the 
> summer of 75.  Its IPC was terrible (and still is).  We shoehorned 
> NCP into the kernel and Telnet as an application in the first 
> version.  Then went back to fix the IPC.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> At 17:58 -0700 2012/05/12, Dave Crocker wrote:
>> On 5/12/2012 2:42 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:
>>> Steve Crocker led the group that developed the
>>> Sigma-7 Experiment Timesharing system. We called it SEX and the most
>>> popular document among the geeks was the SEX Users Manual....
>> 
>> 
>> Cycling back to the topic of Arpa's wanting to share resources, when 
>> we tried to get funding for 32K more memory for the system, Arpa 
>> instead said we should get a PDP-11 and use one of the terminal 
>> concentrator systems (ANTS from Illinois or ELF from Santa Barbara) 
>> and do remote computing.
>> 
>> The concentrator systems weren't up to snuff, but Unix was coming 
>> available on PDP-11s and we got that.
>> 
>> So Arpa took away our Sex and gave us Unix.
>> 
>> Our original superuser password was, of course, eunuchs.
>> 
>> d/
>> --
>> Dave Crocker
>> Brandenburg InternetWorking
>> bbiw.net
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 18:38:42 -0700
> From: "Sytel" <sytel at shaw.ca>
> Subject: Re: [ih] The UCLA 360/91 on the ARPAnet/Internet
> To: <internet-history at postel.org>
> Message-ID: <006882DB56EB466FAAC866F1DEECD360 at bng1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> 	reply-type=original
> 
> In all seriousness, this sounds very informative-- is this manual available 
> somewhere? Would love to know more about the "sit down, log in and do stuff" 
> specifics of it, especially that original UCLA Sigma 7...
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Vint Cerf" <vint at google.com>
> To: "Bernie Cosell" <bernie at fantasyfarm.com>
> Cc: <internet-history at postel.org>
> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2012 2:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [ih] The UCLA 360/91 on the ARPAnet/Internet
> 
> 
>> yes, that was the first machine connected at UCLA - Mike W did the
>> hardware. Charley Kline and others had a hand in the i/o software. I
>> wrote a modified version of the Sigma-7 operating system to run
>> measurements and to generate artificial traffic into the network. Bob
>> Kahn and Dave Walden paid visits to UCLA where we did particular
>> experiments. We used this system to test the predictions of Len
>> Kleinrock and his students about the performance of the ARPANET based
>> on queueing models. Steve Crocker led the group that developed the
>> Sigma-7 Experiment Timesharing system. We called it SEX and the most
>> popular document among the geeks was the SEX Users Manual....
>> 
>> v
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Bernie Cosell <bernie at fantasyfarm.com> 
>> wrote:
>>> On 12 May 2012 at 11:54, Robert Braden wrote:
>>> 
>>>> The side discussion of the two IBM 360/91s at UCLA would
>>>> seem to have little to do with Internet history. ...
>>> 
>>> all this talk of UCLAs connections to the ARPAnet got me wondering:, am I
>>> misremembering? Didn't UCLA have a Sigma 7 that connected to the
>>> ARPAnet [I vaguely recall Mike Wingfield did the interface and I had to
>>> work with him to debug something about it].
>>> 
>>> /bernie\
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers
>>> mailto:bernie at fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA
>>> --> Too many people, too few sheep <--
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 21:45:47 -0400 (EDT)
> From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
> Subject: Re: [ih] Historical fiction
> To: internet-history at postel.org, jeanjour at comcast.net
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Message-ID: <20120513014547.0C02118C0AE at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> 
>> From: John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net>
> 
>> SDC did have a node in Santa Monica and in DC. I don't remember what
>> was connected to it. It may have been a TIP.
> 
> For the one in California, it was originally apparently a 360/67, per this map:
> 
>  http://mercury.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/L70Dec.jpg
> 
> but later it was a 370/145:
> 
>  http://mercury.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/L72Aug.jpg
> 
> It disappeared a couple of years later, the last map I have which shows it is:
> 
>  http://mercury.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/G76Jul.jpg
> 
> I don't see an SDC node in Washington - are you thinking of MITRE? (They were
> kind of organizational siblings, both being formed to work on SAGE, MITRE on
> system engineering, and SDC for the coding.)
> 
> 	Noel
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 22:54:38 -0400
> From: John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [ih] Historical fiction
> To: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa),
> 	internet-history at postel.org,	jeanjour at comcast.net
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Message-ID: <[email protected][10.0.1.3]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
> 
> No, but same area.  MITRE was down on Dolly Madison in McLean.  SDC 
> was up the road on a road behind the Tyson Corner Holiday Inn, when 
> there was a.most nothing back there  I remember seeing deer at the 
> office window about dusk in the woods between SDC and the Holiday Inn.
> 
>> 
>> 
>> I don't see an SDC node in Washington - are you thinking of MITRE? (They were
>> kind of organizational siblings, both being formed to work on SAGE, MITRE on
>> system engineering, and SDC for the coding.)
>> 
>> 	Noel
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 23:28:38 -0400
> From: dave.walden.family at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [ih] The UCLA 360/91 on the ARPAnet/Internet
> To: Sytel <sytel at shaw.ca>
> Cc: "<internet-history at postel.org>" <internet-history at postel.org>
> Message-ID: <CD742FB3-250C-42BB-9AC8-4CA4EBFDCA6F at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=us-ascii
> 
> Go to the UCLA Internet Archive web site.  It has scans of the log book from the Sigma 7 in those earliest days.  Various of the people mention in this discussion are noted in the log book.  Dr. Brad Fidler is the staff archivist if you want a contact there.  The archive is apparently in Boelter Hall where the IMP and Sigma 7 were.   I think the IMP is still there.  
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On May 12, 2012, at 9:38 PM, "Sytel" <sytel at shaw.ca> wrote:
> 
>> In all seriousness, this sounds very informative-- is this manual available somewhere? Would love to know more about the "sit down, log in and do stuff" specifics of it, especially that original UCLA Sigma 7...
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vint Cerf" <vint at google.com>
>> To: "Bernie Cosell" <bernie at fantasyfarm.com>
>> Cc: <internet-history at postel.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2012 2:42 PM
>> Subject: Re: [ih] The UCLA 360/91 on the ARPAnet/Internet
>> 
>> 
>>> yes, that was the first machine connected at UCLA - Mike W did the
>>> hardware. Charley Kline and others had a hand in the i/o software. I
>>> wrote a modified version of the Sigma-7 operating system to run
>>> measurements and to generate artificial traffic into the network. Bob
>>> Kahn and Dave Walden paid visits to UCLA where we did particular
>>> experiments. We used this system to test the predictions of Len
>>> Kleinrock and his students about the performance of the ARPANET based
>>> on queueing models. Steve Crocker led the group that developed the
>>> Sigma-7 Experiment Timesharing system. We called it SEX and the most
>>> popular document among the geeks was the SEX Users Manual....
>>> 
>>> v
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Bernie Cosell <bernie at fantasyfarm.com> wrote:
>>>> On 12 May 2012 at 11:54, Robert Braden wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> The side discussion of the two IBM 360/91s at UCLA would
>>>>> seem to have little to do with Internet history. ...
>>>> 
>>>> all this talk of UCLAs connections to the ARPAnet got me wondering:, am I
>>>> misremembering? Didn't UCLA have a Sigma 7 that connected to the
>>>> ARPAnet [I vaguely recall Mike Wingfield did the interface and I had to
>>>> work with him to debug something about it].
>>>> 
>>>> /bernie\
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers
>>>> mailto:bernie at fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA
>>>> --> Too many people, too few sheep <--
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 23:33:12 -0400
> From: dave.walden.family at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [ih] Historical fiction
> To: John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net>
> Cc: "internet-history at postel.org" <internet-history at postel.org>
> Message-ID: <8F9ED3EA-912D-4891-9091-ACC2ACE2F3F1 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=us-ascii
> 
> Is this mention of SDC in DC, do people perhaps mean SDAC in Alexandria?  
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On May 12, 2012, at 10:54 PM, John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>> No, but same area.  MITRE was down on Dolly Madison in McLean.  SDC was up the road on a road behind the Tyson Corner Holiday Inn, when there was a.most nothing back there  I remember seeing deer at the office window about dusk in the woods between SDC and the Holiday Inn.
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I don't see an SDC node in Washington - are you thinking of MITRE? (They were
>>> kind of organizational siblings, both being formed to work on SAGE, MITRE on
>>> system engineering, and SDC for the coding.)
>>> 
>>>   Noel
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 9
> Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 06:10:47 -0400
> From: Vint Cerf <vint at google.com>
> Subject: Re: [ih] The UCLA 360/91 on the ARPAnet/Internet
> To: Robert Braden <braden at isi.edu>,	internet history
> 	<internet-history at postel.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAHxHggceuqNVQt_6mqPdOCdywhtHOKagY_okUEkAL2NUtK28Mw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> it was international and it did include louis pouzin. However, the
> TCP/IP development was undertaken first by bob kahn and me (and we
> briefed INWG in Sept 1973 at University of Sussex), then by my group
> at Stanford University during 1974 (including yogen dalal, carl
> sunshine, dick karp, judy estrin, jim mathis, darryl rubin and seminar
> attendees john shoch and occasionally bob metcalfe. Gerard LeLann came
> from Louis Pouzin's group for a year; Dag Belsnes from Univ of Oslo,
> Kuninobu Tanno from Japan, Paal Spilling from NDRE; I am sure I have
> left out a few others); and then Ray Tomlinson and Bill Plummer at BBN
> as well as Peter Kirstein and his group at UCL (there is a long list
> here but I can't reproduce it from memory) in 1975. In 1976 we start
> seeing more implementations and tests - the big one in Nov 1977 with
> all three networks. We generated Internet Experiment Notes. I don't
> think we had a name for the group of implementors sponsored by ARPA.
> By 1979 we are well on the way to standardizing version 4 including
> the split. By 1980 or so, BBN and Berkeley are working the Unix
> version; ultimately BSD 4.2 is released with TCP/IP by Bill Joy (among
> others). I don't recall exactly when you did the IBM 360/91 and 360/75
> versions but it must have been 1976 or later? Dave Clark did his IBM
> PC version probably around 1980? Jim Mathis did a version for the DEC
> LSI-11/23 that we used for the packet radio testing in the 1976-1980
> period. Bob Kahn urged me to create the ICCB, which I did in 1979 with
> Dave Clark as chair. After I left ARPA, Barry Leiner assumed
> responsibility for further Internet development and created the
> Internet Activities Board again with Dave Clark in the chairman's
> post.
> 
> As for the group that did the original tcp/ip design, implementation
> and testing, I think the principals were on the ICCB  - so that
> included Bob Braden, steve kent (security - BCR project w/NSA and
> DCEC), Dave Clark, Dan Lynch, Jon Postel, Jack Haverty, Dave Mills,
> who else? Danny Cohen and David Reed were proponents of splitting off
> IP but I don't think they were on the ICCB (boy, memory is hazy). I
> don't remember whether Ed Cain was on the ICCB but he was the active
> technical proponent of TCP/IP at the Defense Communications
> Engineering Center in Reston and was involved in the testing of the

Ed Cain ran the Protocol Standards Technical Panel (PSTP) at DCEC.  
Its purpose was to make sure the protocols coming from IETF (or elsewhere) 
met military needs (as I recall).  CHM has many of the minutes and handouts 
from these meetings, although some items were classified at the time.

> BCR packet Encryptors. Ray McFarland was the primary contact at NSA

> for BCR and for the Internet protocol development starting around
> 1975, if memory serves.
> 
> regarding the term "Internet" it was applied to RFC 675, December
> 1974, the first full TCP spec that had three authors: vint cerf, yogen
> dalal and carl sunshine.
> 
> i am copying the history list hoping they will add to this summary
> and, in particular, pick up names I've missed.
> 
> vint
> 
> 
> On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Robert Braden <braden at isi.edu> wrote:
>> Vint,
>> 
>> I had the idea that INWG was international and included eg Louis Pouzin.
>> 
>> There was a group of ARPA contractors and a few others ( e.g. , ??? from
>> DCEC) , which I think you formed and which you certainly led,
>> that worked out the TCP/IP protocol specs. You subdivided it into the TCP
>> sub-group (to which you assigned me) and the IP sub group. From this
>> group came 5 (or 6?) prototype implementations of the developing TCP
>> spec. What was this group called? I don't think we had settled on the
>> term "Internet" yet; I recall an ICCB meeting where that issue
>> as settled.
>> 
>> I have never read any recognition of this group, nor seen its membership
>> recognized.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 5/12/2012 12:45 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:
>>> 
>>> i think we settled on "international network working group" (INWG) in
>>> October 1972 but IEN 48 was titled "The Catenet Model" as I recall -
>>> and credit was given to Louis Pouzin and his group for inventing that
>>> term.
>>> 
>>> v
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> 
> 
> End of internet-history Digest, Vol 62, Issue 19
> ************************************************